Kevin MacDonald: Charles Dodgson’s current TOO article is a particularly well-articulated comment on Christianity as a vehicle for ethnic interests. Dodgson is certainly not blind to the failings of contemporary Christianity:
In the face of diversity’s many sins, not one major Christian denomination stands with the majority of Westerners in opposing mass Third World immigration. Nor do they defend voluntary reciprocal segregation in multi-ethnic societies or criticize the elites that are forcing diversity on an unwilling but leaderless public.
Dodgson provides an excellent point about “the truth of Christian universalism. … Just as the Church protects parental rights and the autonomy and dignity of families, so it should defend national rights. It would be wrong for Chinese bishops to promote mass foreign immigration to China, or for Japanese monks to undermine Japanese homogeneity. ”
But his main point is that we have to think historically. And in that regard, there is no question that the Christianity has had a vital role in the development of the West. Here Dodgson goes into a great many positive aspects of the Christian legacy of which the following is only a partial listing:
Not for nothing was the West known as Christendom. The Church acted to save bodies and posterity as well as souls. It blessed new knights in the ceremony of knighthood, sanctified the new code of chivalry that forbade harming civilians and enacted the first codified rules of war. War was justified when it advanced Christendom — an ethnic-friendly legitimization that reduced or at least regulated fighting among Christians and culminated in the Crusaders’ attempt to wrest Near Eastern lands of the Eastern Roman Empire back from the Arabs. The Church defended the ordinary man from a parasitic aristocracy. It helped forge nations with responsible governments. It protected the mass of the people from enemies without and within. The English Church promoted the expulsion of Jews — who had become a predatory financial elite — from the country in 1290 as a pastoral duty, also a trend elsewhere in Western Europe. Throughout Europe the Church was Gentiles’ repository of sophisticated culture, of literacy and record keeping. It was indispensible for governance, advising kings and educating princes. It prevented the Jews from monopolizing the niche of trans-generational literary group strategy. It underwrote the earliest stirrings of modern science. The university, one of the greatest creations of the West, was founded under the Church’s auspices. Professors were priests of learning. Gregor Mendel was an ethnic German monk!
Some of this touches on themes of anti-Semitism in Ch. 4 of Separation and Its Discontents:
The Church was at the apogee of its power over secular affairs during the 13th century, and an important aspect of the economic policy of the Church was to remove Jews from the economic life of Christendom. “It was not sheer accident” (Cohen 1982, 41) that both the Dominicans and the Franciscans developed a Christian theology of commerce and trade or that St. Francis was often described as the patron saint of merchants. Jordan (1989, 27) describes the efforts of the Church to remove Jews from the economic life of France in the 12th through the 14th centuries as an aspect of its program to develop a corporate Christian economic community by pushing Jews out of occupations and professions they formerly engaged in. Similarly, in England the Christianization of national life excluded Jews from public administration, trade, and agriculture (Rabinowitz 1938, 37). This suggests that the rise of gentile middle classes in Western Europe was facilitated by the exclusion of Jews by the medieval Church as an exclusionary, collectivist entity (see also PTSDA, Ch. 8). Houston Stewart Chamberlain apparently held a similar view. When asked to propose a Jewish policy for Romania, Chamberlain noted that the exclusion of Jews from England from 1290 to 1657 had, according to Field’s (1981, 222n) paraphrase, “enabled a strong, vigorous British race to grow and sustain itself.”
King Louis IX of France (Saint Louis), who lived like a monk though one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in Europe, was a particularly zealous warrior in carrying out the Church’s economic and political programs. Louis attempted to develop a corporate, hegemonic Christian entity in which social divisions within the Christian population were minimized in the interests of group harmony. Consistent with this group-oriented perspective, Louis appears to have been genuinely concerned about the effect of Jewish moneylending on society as a whole, rather than its possible benefit to the crown—a major departure from the many ruling elites throughout history who have utilized Jews as a means of extracting resources from their subjects. [In order to finance his first crusade Louis ordered the expulsion of all Jews engaged in usury and the confiscation of their property.]
The important point that expulsion of the Jews allowed for the formation of a native middle class is elaborated in the section “Is Ethnic Conflict Rational? Historical Data” in this article which also comments on the predatory lending practices of Jews during the Middle Ages:
Loans made at interest rates common in the Middle Ages (oftentimes 33%–65%) are simply exploitative, and there is little wonder that they caused hatred on the part of ruined debtors and deep concern on the part of the Church. Moneylending under these circumstances did indeed benefit moneylenders and their aristocratic backers, but, as with loan-sharking today, it simply resulted in destitution for the vast majority of the customers—especially the poorer classes—rather than economic growth for the society as a whole. Loans were made to the desperate, the unintelligent, and the profligate rather to people with good economic prospects who would invest their money to create economic growth; they were made [citing Parkes] “not to the prosperous farmer…but the farmer who could not make ends meet; not the successful squire, but the waster; the peasant, not when his crops were good, but when they failed; the artisan, not when he sold his wares, but when he could not find a market. Not unnaturally, a century of such a system was more than any community could stand, and the story of Jewish usury is a continuous alternation of invitation, protection, protestation and condemnation.”
This is important, and we shouldn’t forget it. Hence the cover photo of my book Cultural Insurrections: Notre Dame, which was being built during the reign of Saint Louis.
Tags: Kevin MacDonald
Me,
While you make some good points, you have some nerve suggesting the World would’ve been a better place without Krista.
We need MORE Sexy Redheaded Homeschooling Pagans, not less.
Anyway, I wonder what the birthrate of White Pagans is?
The problem though is that if we get rid of Christianity, the vast majority of Whites will probably just turn to Atheism, as opposed to Krista’s very interesting creed.
Unlike Paganism, nothing good has ever come from Atheism.
reginold:
The problem though is that if we get rid of Christianity
I do not argue that in its present state- its in a bad way – it has been infected with the same marxist idealogy that has destroyed our universities. but no one suggests do away with our university system – or learning in general
Christianity is valuable in itself – not simply because their are no other choices – the vast work – literally thousands of years – of philosophy, theology, art, law, science, etc are fabric of the west. Only a fool would toss all that out and replace it with some crackpot pagan ‘bible’ or pseudo new age nonsense. Paganism cannot produce a theologian equal to a Luther, Calvin or Augustine because they don’t have the material to build theology on. They are trying to create a ‘new order’ – haven’t we had enough of that already: communism, marxism, the french revolution, and on and on and on.
The best ‘revolutions’ draw on the fabric of our culture – the American revolution was a re-assertion of our God-given rights (we are endowed by our creator) – not an attempt at a new order. There is something to be said for the wisdom of the ages.
nothing good has ever come from Atheism.
agreed. The effects have been devastating. By far the most fanatical, irrational people I know are atheists. It borders on a mental disease, but a dangerous one – is it any wonder Jews have the highest rate of atheism of any ethnic group?
Looking back upon my previous post, I must admit that I did not phrase my wording quite well. In no way did I intend my statement to mean “a humanitarian adoption center”. It is vile and cowardly to dispose of anything simply because of inconveniences, my intent was to displace your argument that not all things are one-sided and understood singularly. It is also cruel, however, to allow a child to continue their existence when they can never live up to their societies standards. It is just a movie, but it is true what Ephialtes says in the movie 300 to Leonidas, he cursed his parents for saving him.
I believe it is also incorrect to base your conclusions upon a society simply based upon a certain era, an era which was undoubtedly in decline. As I have said over and over again, this does not discredit their society as a whole nor their religious practices, unless you are willing to yield that our own society should be viewed the same way you view Rome and must discredit Christianity as well, since we too practice abortion (many times, simply because the children are seen as an inconvenience). Whether these people be Christians or not, they live in a country and time that are predominantly Christian and they know that they are held in contempt by most for their actions.
I suppose I would rather stay ignorant, as you say, since Christianity can only be understood by only the best and brightest in our society and takes years of devout and dedicated study and service to make you a Christian. I feel sympathy for the majority of people who can never attain to such altitudes.
To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with critiquing a society, and yes, there was plenty wrong with Rome, no society is perfect. I never claimed that you cannot do this, but to quote you, it “is rotted”, this is suggesting it’s unworthiness to be claimed as a high civilization and not worthy of our imitation. This is silly and illogical, there are many things within Rome that we should imitate and be very thankful for. One large example would be her government, one need only to read Machiavelli’s “Discourses on Livy” to see that. If this is not attacking the West, than I don’t know what is apparently.
To answer your second question, the one you say evades all of us anti’s, why are we not attacking Kevin McDonald’s thesis? I will not state what was said (oh, I’m sorry, written) before. I will state it differently than before however; I see nothing wrong with having Christianity help bring more people within our movement if it would work. If it would work under what Kevin McDonald assumed, than yes, please have at it and start recruiting!!!! Personally, and I have a feeling this is true for other anti’s out there, it’s not so much that we don’t feel that Christianity can bind our people together and reawaken our racial consciousness, but that Christians will feel that all of us “others” don’t belong and will find it imperative to “convert” or “condemn” us – which has been clearly shown on this blog to be very true most of the time! Christianity can only allow two options, either we convert and be saved or we are the enemy of Christ and must be expelled if conversion is futile. This is not a viable option in my opinion.
Nor did I suggest that Christianity be done away with, actually, this is probably not even plausible. My concern is that Christianity is too totalitarian to allow freedom of religion within our community – and the hostility against pagans demonstrated on these blogs certainly doesn’t speak otherwise. I’m not sure where you have read that Dalton and Sunic seek to destroy and wipe out Christianity, my perception of their work leads me to believe they wish to see a revival of paganism within White Europeans because they feel this is a healthier religion for our people – I’m sorry that they do not share your viewpoints.
My infantile mind still cannot comprehend how Christianity is so necessary for the West to survive since it was born without it. Our history has undoubtedly been interlaced with Christianity for centuries, and this cannot be ignored unless we wish to erase this part of our history. However, you do not have to be a Christian to appreciate or know such great men as Galileo, Michelangelo, Newton, Charles Martel, Richard III, Elizabeth, or even Cromwell; Christianity by itself doesn’t define these (wo)men, their actions do. It would be tragic to disregard these men just because they don’t share my religion, but they do share something that all of us White Europeans partake, a culture that transcends religion. Agree or disagree, this is why pagans feel that paganism is needed to ensure a continuity of our culture, because it is fully capable of transcending and adapting to time without condemning men to dogma.
I feel like I have stated myself more clearly and I do not expect you to agree with me, you have demonstrated nothing but hostility towards me. We could go on into infinitum on this matter with neither of us budging, so I find it useless to continue this discussion with you. Nor would I wish to continue on discussing anything with you since you have proven yourself vile and repugnant.
The utmost amount of shame lies upon you for your ignoble words. Not once have I attacked you in such a way to warrant this verbal assault – my only slight was that I believe you do not belong within this movement, a belief I still hold. I would never want to associate myself with someone that wished my demise and thus wished two beautiful white children not to be born into this world. You have proven yourself a coward, hypocrite, and shameful; you should be glad that I am a very reasonable individual and do not hold all of those that claim the title Christian in such disregard as I do for you. I believe your fellow Christians on this board will feel dismayed that one of their own could spout such venom. I’m sure my Christian parents will feel disgrace that one of their own would speak so heinously towards their daughter who they know to be a loving and devoted mother, and I know my husband has nothing but ill towards anyone that would slight his ever faithful wife without even knowing her. And it is to your great discredit that my children are here and alive and every day bask in the warmth of their divine heritage, all because their mother and father have demonstrated to them PRIDE FOR THEIR PEOPLE.
Est ad virum firmum, qui non mortem timet quod scit ubi est adit, sed quod scit qui fuerat fecerat.
(For those who study Latin, please forgive my rather lousy translation, I will admit that my English-to-Latin is very poor!)
Krista, I’m not a pagan or anything like that but you do seem to be a nice lady. Don’t pay too much attention to what me says. He makes an all too common mistake by overemphasizing the role of Christianity in Western societies. If anything, our history is the story of a race that rose above dogma or any religious creed to embrace knowledge and reason. It doesn’t mean we’re atheists or anything like that. It just means that we are constantly striving to better ourselves. By the way, I don’t believe for a second that the Jews really hate Christianity. If anything, it has proven to be a great divide and conquer strategy for them when it comes to whites. After all, they are its inventors.
,I> If anything, our history is the story of a race that rose above dogma or any religious creed to embrace knowledge and reasonon the contrary, the church (see little c) preserved knowledge, expanded it by creating the university system (notice how nearly all the first universities are christian (oxford, salmanca, cambridge, yale, harvard -now that they are secular are they better?) the scienitific method arose out of Chrstian thought. As did much reason- Augustine, Thomas Aquianas, to name a couple.
By the way, I don’t believe for a second that the Jews really hate Christianity. really? Is that why Christians are spit on (literally, not figuratively) in jerusalem? Is that why the Talmud calls the Virgin Mary a harlot and Christ a blasphemer who is boiling in shit in hell? Is that why every single lawsuit to remove Christmas from the public square is led by jews. this flies in the face of reality justin, yet you ‘claim’ to embrace knowledge and reason.
PS, Krista, you still didn’t actually answer the question I asked, your silence and Justin’s obvious denial, speaks volumes.
…………….
Krista I feel like I have stated myself more clearly
Yes, and perhaps if you had not stated you were specifically attacking me, when i said nothing directly to you, you would not have a stone tossed at your glass house. Let it serve as a lesson, at least in good manners.
I would never want to associate myself with someone that wished my demise
By your own admission, you implied infanticide, or leaving children to die of exposure was a subtle adaption system. (you had the honesty to admit your mistake, admirable) . I simply wished that you had benefited from such a system.
It is a crude version of Lincoln’s response to those who said slavery was good for slaves – he said, in effect, I have never seen anyone who really thinks something is good who didn’t do it themselves. Simple minds would say ‘ah-ha Lincoln wished people to be slaves’ a slightly more careful reading would reveal that it is simply a ‘device’ to make one realize the folly of their argument.
On that note Krista, “I do desire we may be better strangers”
me: “Krista I feel like I have stated myself more clearly
Yes, and perhaps if you had not stated you were specifically attacking me, when i said nothing directly to you, you would not have a stone tossed at your glass house. Let it serve as a lesson, at least in good manners.”
I have no desire to argue with you anymore, you are set in your ways and I in mine. You are correct, I did specifically target you without you even stating anything directly to me – I suppose this could be assumed to be poor manners and if seen as such, I appologize. The only reason I responded is because I take great offense when someone attacks “us” based upon our religious choices and decides to throw us into the same category as Marxists, etc. I think it is irresponsible to denote all of us and call us “destroyers of the West” simply based on religious difference, even more ubsurd considering this religious difference is based upon an organic Western movement that fully supports a revival of the West and thus wishes for the same things you desire. I suggest you become used to this concept, even if you disagree, because a many good and honest people are pushed away from our cause because of Christian fanaticism.
Also, the glass house allegory is a bit overstated considering it is still standing firm. Your questions will remain unanswered because I do not wish to be better strangers, an attack upon my existance and thus my childrens warrants no friendship.
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